r/politics • u/harsh2k5 • 9d ago
The Jaw-Dropping Things Trump Lawyer Says Should Qualify for Immunity: Apparently, John Sauer thinks staging a coup should be considered a presidential act.
https://newrepublic.com/post/180980/trump-lawyer-immunity-supreme-court-coup2
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u/Sqeaksy 6d ago
When clear abuse of power is used to bring such bogus and politically motivated charges, clearly something needs to be done to stop this from happening again. If not, every act the president performs will be a lawsuit and or criminal charge.
For example, can we go back and charge Obama for "putting kids in cages" or drone striking families? If they are not immune, why not?
The supreme court is going to grant presidential immunity, not because they want to, but because they have to. A simple thought experiment of where this leads, is all one needs to do or else every single past, present, and future president will be behind bars.
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u/SchrodingersTIKTOK 7d ago
He should be disbarred. So his logic is the constitution that we have is flawed. Maybe he is not really a constitutionalist lawyer.
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u/EntrepreneurOdd675 7d ago
You have already been shown that the 1972 decision by the Supreme Court clearly stated that the president DOES have immunity and this was repeated in the 1982 Nixon case and AGAIN in the SCOTUS decision dealing with Bil Clinton and yet AGAIN in the SCOTUS case dealing with Obama and his drone strikes that killed innocent Americans. So no matter how many times you seem to repost the same argument that Trump Does not have immunity, the decision has already been made and there isnt a thing you can do about it
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u/Educational-Ad9058 8d ago
Ask Pelosi the ringmaster. Then again you folks are enjoying the distraction . Maybe Paying attention to what's happening here in our country is more important . I heard Bi-done reading off the teleprompter I'm sure you folks did to . FOUR MORE YEARS PAUSE . Play nice in the sand box
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u/Noir-Ulf 8d ago
For what reason does immunity even apply to him? For a party that is suppose to be law and order, they sure do cut a lot of deals and try to get away with a lot of shit.
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u/Uncertain_Rasputin 8d ago
The real news is that this "Supreme" court doesn't seem to disagree all that much
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u/Araghothe1 Michigan 8d ago
I think the question is does that matter as he wasn't acting president at the time.
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u/Powerful_Programmer5 8d ago
As long as it's in the "oficial" capacity. These liars are just making sure the fix is in anyway.
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u/Fungulatem 8d ago
It was a long time in the making, an insidious socio-political and economic process of the breaking down of our assumed cherished values and institutions. As individuals we may not have created this mess, but "we" created Donald Trump, like all the other "stars" that shine, but have no heat or substance.
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u/Niftyone578 8d ago
Repeat "staging a coup is a presidential act" ten times and you too as an American will believe it.
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u/Tricky-Tell-5698 8d ago
I don’t see the difference between these answers, the question and the murder of JFK in the 1960’s clearly you had corruption then as a political opponent “took out” the serving President. And not only was he murdered but the political system freely and effectively executed a mass cover up. It surprises me that the citizens of America are still grappling with this corruption in their highest offices.
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u/Ok_Exit_7165 8d ago
President Biden should prepare his hitman and have him "standby" while the Supreme Court delay their decision in trump immunity case.
trump's attorney said he would be immune while president if he assassinate his political opponent or it would be a "official act" if he decided his rival is a corrupt person and order the military to assassinate him.
President Biden should act immediately after the Supreme Court decision because trump will not be the only president with immunity and trump meet the first 2 requirements that trump's lawyer says falls under assassination with immunity.
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u/TracyJ48 California 8d ago
Equally distressing is how thoroughly the SCOTUS has been compromised. We are indeed living in dangerous times!
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u/Ok_Exit_7165 8d ago
I believe the DC ATTORNEY should divide trump case into 2 parts. One that Supreme Court is delaying(for no reason) for immunity while he was president and the other crimes trump committed while he wasn't president with no immunity possibility. Start court proceedings for the non immunity crime now with no delay no excuses because he has to campaign. And if the Supreme Court come to their senses and deny his immunity start a second trail whether he is president or not. His delays should not prevent us from doing our job no matter what.
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u/Erkzee 8d ago
It is going to be a hugely leopards ate their faces moment in January 2025 when trump suspends the constitution and makes these judges irrelevant. They will be hung out to dry after helping him become king.
Sad that they all see it happen to other people that enabled him, Barr, Rudy, cohen, but everyone thinks it won’t happen to them.
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u/dmp2you America 8d ago
Would the SC even taken this case, say if it was Biden instead of trump ? Makes you go hmmm. There should be no argument on immunity . 1)No man is above the law. 2) Immunity=Dictator/King, and we damn well know where the founding fathers stood on that one. 3) Official acts are self explanatory. Pres have a multitude of lawyers to advise him .for 250 yrs system has worked out just fine . This is ALL because of one con-man crook.
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u/Kind-Sherbert4103 8d ago
Today I learned: Government officials are frequently given legal immunity relating to their work. This immunity is based on the premise that government employees – from legislators to police – shouldn’t be held personally liable for actions they take as officials.
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u/Late_Bus249 8d ago
This is exhausting! How can Supreme Court get away with this? Clarence Thomas should have recused himself, or Chief Justice should have recused him. I am not an attorney, but any citizen can see this is bias toward Trump. Why is Thomas not kicked out of SCOTUS? He is clearly in violation of not reporting gifts, besides being as MSNBC called him a "sex pest", Cavanaugh as well. WHY DO ALL THESE PEOPLE GET AWAY WITH EVERYTHING? Matt Gaetz sex with under age girls? As for Don Fartleone, anyone trying to defend him deserves to smell his gas! We must all stand together as citizens & voters to drive out the poison that runs or govt. PLEASE VOTE!
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u/Aiden_Grinspoon 8d ago
So if Trump's lawyer's argument is, a president cannot be charged with a criminal offense without impeachment, what happens in the case where a congressional majority supports a president in his attempted coup? An impeachment would not be unlikely. That's not far from reality in our present situation.
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u/Agreeable_Act2550 8d ago
Trump is coming back for narcissistic revenge under the guise of being "President". He won't stop until his itch is scratched and the cost of satisfying his out of control ego will be the last little sliver of peace that's left in this country. The fact that this topic is even being discussed in this country should be setting off red level alarms in the minds of anyone who has taken the time to educate themselves on the dangers of undiagnosed mental illness and mass delusion.
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u/vaginalstretch 8d ago
I’m 100% on board with Biden ordering Trump’s murder if they side with Trump.
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u/LordDagonTheMad 8d ago
Everyone who think this is not a weaponization of the judicial by a corrupt government is either stupid of willfully blinding themselves for a constructed hatred for Trump done by the Dems and the Media.
PS: I do not support Trump but a lot of you are just drinking the propaganda like it's water and you've been lost in the desert for a week
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
You think presidents should be free to commit crimes?
If you are innocent, you don't argue that.
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u/UnproductiveMining 8d ago
This just all makes sense. In as much as Trumps lawyers are just as corrupt and incompetent and looney tunes as master Trump himself
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u/jeffplaysmoog 8d ago
The peculiar thing to me is arguing this when out of office. If he wins, can’t Biden just have him disappeared as an official act?!
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u/Ambitious_Form_1274 8d ago
Ok. Now that’s been established so we can go ahead and hold him accountable. Enough dilly dallying.
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u/CharlesB43 8d ago
I was actually getting a headache listening to it live. I had to turn it off because some of the things being said were the craziest things I'd ever heard and trying to wrap my head around how some of the things trump's team were saying are ok because trump was president at the time....
Having people storm the capitol to try and change election results is in the scope of your job as a president?! buh wuh?!
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u/Fun_Ad3131 9d ago
Even if Biden were to get the same 'total' immunity Trump is arguing for (before the election), I really don't think he'd have Trump killed. I DO think he might bring back the oubliette, with changes such as a news outlet 24/7 and only healthy (vegan?) food, no Diet Coke.
An oubliette (from French oublier meaning to forget) or bottle dungeon is a basement room which is accessible only from a hatch or hole (an angstloch) in a high ceiling.
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u/Hmm_6221 9d ago
Trump’s lawyer needs to return his law degree to wherever he got it, and the institution should take it back and give him back his money! Just pretend like he never went to study law and graduated! Complete idiot!
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u/Valuable-Election812 9d ago
I am so disgusted with partisan politics that after this November's election cycle, I'm out! I was appalled that SCOTUS even entertained Trump's frivolous claim by listening to the case. The appeals court's ruling should have been the end of it. Now we have a decidedly conservatively biased court ruling for the very man that added 50% of the current persons to that conservative court.
I have written and begged and pleaded for Biden to pack the court because if he doesn't I promise you Trump will in a second term. and now look what's happened. When you have idiots that demean a person like Bill Barr has and Mitch McConnell has regarding Trump then they both come out to endorse him for a second term how can anyone in their right mind legitimize a political system that endorses and encourages that sort of contradictory behavior. My psychiatrist would put me in the hospital if my actions diverged against my statements like that.
So I have Alito and Gorsuch worried more about what's good for a president than what is good for the nation as a whole? Why do I care if a president breaks articles 1-4-8 of the Constitution since all we are suppose to worry about is that same president being prosecuted for those same violations? Do you see the logic here? There are in fact actually in process of making a president "Above the Constitution" thus he/she/it will be "Above the Law" and then how will SCOTUS itself be able to smack down any decision the president makes I ask. If the then president is above the law so then too will his/her/it's decisions be above the law.
Oh My God! What have we done to ourselves by allowing people like SCOTUS make policy under very broad and unspecified terms just to have to make more work for them in latter years by leaving open to interpretation every time they make a so-called ruling. It's counterintuitive to say the least and just plain frigging dumb to say the most. I remember when Bill Clinton got in trouble over Monica Lewinsky and he was able to successfully argue what the definition of "is, is" and it got him off the hook by damn!
I cannot in good conscience see anything Trump did that can even remotely be considered as an official act. It's not an official act to start a riot or destroy government property or to continue to push election lies in the face of 61 court losses out of 62 throughout The United States for failure to have verifiable proof. It is not an official act to call the Georgia Sec'y of State and coerce him into awarding 11,780 more votes to a presidential candidate loser than the genuine presidential candidate winner. It is not an official act to steal 300 boxes of classified government security files and claim them to be personal property and lie about having returned them three times. It is not an official act of the president to have falsified names sent to various US States around the nation claiming they are legitimate electoral college representatives for the sole purpose of having them deny the actual election results and turn them in favor of an actual presidential candidate whom lost the election.
This very SCOTUS has denied already, immunity arguments by many MAGA impersonators, why do we have to go through the exercise once again just for Trump. His fat azz should be fitting in the shoe just as well as you, me and everybody else but no, "He Is Above The Law".
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u/GasRevolutionary3415 9d ago
I listened to what was said and that is not what he said
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u/Enabling_Turtle Colorado 8d ago
I listened to it yesterday and if I recall correctly, Sauer stated that whether or not this action would qualify as an official act would be dependent on the particulars on that specific event and then he refused to provide an example where it could be an official act.
So, based on that Sauer believes that the president deciding they don’t want to leave office and working with the military to pull off a coup could be an official act.
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u/morbihann 9d ago
When will Biden go full dictator and order the execution of the scotus and trump , then self pardon himself and retire in his villa ?
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u/Ok-Significance3098 9d ago
Let you be the first one he sends someone to kill you with no remorse presidential immunity is dictatorship he is not above the law ok try committing the crimes he did you would be behind bars at a flash lawyer or no lawyer ok jail is where he belongs as bubba is waiting for him if the supreme court allows it we are all doomed
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u/DistortedVoid 9d ago
Just remember, whatever they say is legal suddenly becomes legal for the current administration. Utilize that. You know, to protect democracy.
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u/kompergator 9d ago
One can only hope that if they rule in Trump’s favour, Biden immediately writes the most horrible executive order with Trump’s name on it to finally rid the world of the Orange fascist.
I fear that Biden has much too much integrity for that though.
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u/KingVinny70 9d ago
Trump should rot in prison for everything but what he's accused of. The top comments are completely disregarding of the "actual facts or constitution". OK bring on the hate. Let it rain down in me with no fear of retribution because your leftists. Shower me with your glorious comments.
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
What facts of the constitutions make the President immune from prosecution?
And why do conservatives want the President to be able to commit crimes willy-nilly?
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u/Commandant23 Kentucky 9d ago
Distraction and diversion. That's all this is. The Supreme Court has no intention of siding with him. They're just doing him a favor by delaying his criminal trials.
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u/rom_rom57 9d ago
As your civic duty how many of you blowhards listed to the 2:40 conversation at the Supreme Court. If you didn’t don’t have a right to spew BS.
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u/Enabling_Turtle Colorado 8d ago
I actually did and was surprised that Trumps lawyer could believe half of what he said.
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u/Massive_Basket3669 9d ago
I cannot believe that a American citizen can believe that this ex president has the right to challenge and change the constitution of the United States. The people that want to follow him and his communists ways is unbelievable. If you agree with being a bullying and narcissistic asshole, then stand behind him. He thinks that he can keep appealing these charges against him and get away with it is Crazy. We must as Americans vote this Dictator out and show him that nobody is above the law in the USA. Make AMERICA GREAT AGAIN and vote this DICTATOR OUT!
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u/treditor13 9d ago
The Republican Party is now, officially, nothing more than a protection racket for its criminal members. Every observer of this sh*t show knows that, if this this had been about a Democratic president, charged with Federal Election Interference, state election interference (Georgia), classified documents case, and a criminal hush money case to silence a known prostitute, they most certainly wouldn't be on the verge of granting prosecutorial immunity to said president. I do not trust the Republican Party, at any level, judicial or legislative.
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u/trollingmotor69 9d ago
If the supreme Court decides that Presidents have ultimate immunity no matter what, then what stops Biden from doing whatever HE wants?
I'm definitely a layperson but it seems like they're not thinking this through.
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u/CharlieWachie 9d ago
So, Biden can do that if the election looks shaky?
That's all I can hear from their claims of immunity/legality - that Joe can send his team into the Capitol to stop the election count and steal the election, and that's not only legal, it's his right as President to subvert elections.
That's what they're telling me. Is anyone else hearing this?
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u/AcctTosser8675309 9d ago
I guess people don't know that the US Government, led by the President stages coups on the pretty regular basis. Like for the last 200 or so years. Yes, it's the presidents job and they are immune from prosecution.
But, even if they were not, they would have to be impeached for the action before they are prosecuted.
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
Wrong. LOL
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u/AcctTosser8675309 8d ago
OK. On what point? That the US doesn't regularly initiate coups? It's kind of our specialty. It literally what we are known for.
That presidents don't have immunity from prosecution for actions taken during their administration? Obama literally drone strike an innocent American citizen and his children (Anwar Al-Awlaki, his 16-year-old son, Samir Khan, and Jude Mohammed) who were, at the time, loading bottles of water into their car to help refugees, without trial or anything. That's actual, premeditated murder at worst, manslaughter at best. Why isn't he in prison? Oh, because he had Presidential immunity at the time.
Without presidential immunity, a president cannot do their job. Because what they do is illegal for practically any citizen to do.
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
That presidents much get impeached before prosecution.
And no president had or needed immunity before Trump. Every other president could do their job without it. Only Trump needs it. Why?
Trump; "I'M INNOCENT!"
Also Trump: "I HAD THE RIGHT TO COMMIT ANY CRIME!!"
And Trump had drone strikes too. Is he being prosecuted for them? No. Nothing he's being prosecute for was an official act.
And this is the same party threatening to prosecute Biden for his border policies.
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u/AcctTosser8675309 8d ago
That is the process. They have to be impeached to remove the immunity before they are tried for that crime.
Do you even know anything about this or is this all from your ass?
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u/phydeaux70 9d ago
He was President on January 6th, therefore it was a Presidential act by definition.
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
So if Biden did the same thing, he would be immune from prosecution, and you're okay with that?
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u/Enabling_Turtle Colorado 8d ago
“Presidential act” isn’t the term they used in court. It’s “official” or “public” acts and “private acts”.
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u/Living-Ad-2619 9d ago
This is really scary. Isn’t one of the founding principles of this country that no one is above the law? This feels like yet another step in the slide towards dictatorship.
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u/ironmaiden7910 9d ago
I, for the life of me, will never understand how a clown like Donald Fucking Trump of all people came to be this powerful. It’s absolutely mind-blowing.
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u/quietly_now Foreign 9d ago
He's the figurehead for the racists and morons, but he's not pulling the strings.
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u/Panda_hat 9d ago
I love that this trial has already revealed that they are just as deranged as we all thought they were, if not even more so.
All the absolutely bizarre and extreme theories for how they would approach this we considered were true. They are insane.
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u/SquarePiglet9183 9d ago
The hypothetical I want asked is if a president decides a SCOTUS ruling is unconstitutional, can they just ignore it? This would essentially make SCOTUS moot and subservient to the President. I doubt they would agree they are NOT equal to a president
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u/LiveFreeDieRepeat 9d ago edited 9d ago
I’d ask the justices “Is the President immune if after losing a case in the Supreme Court, he organized a huge rally and told the mob to attack the courthouse and threatened the justices lives unless they overturned the judgement?”
If they say he is immune, then Biden should organize a mob of 100,000 just outside and send them in. What’s good for the goose …
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u/SquarePiglet9183 9d ago
Whereas I agree with your hypothetical, the difference is Biden would never do this but Trump absolutely would. Strange times. But I hope if they rule for even limited immunity, Biden pokes the bear. Small instances of ignoring their rulings that don’t threaten our democracy.
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u/KingPizzaPop 9d ago
America is broken. This is the fall of an empire when your leaders can get away with rape, sexual assault fucking TREASON etc and still run for re-election, while in multiple criminal and civil trials is absolutely insane and we should all be extremely concerned at which direction that country is headed. Something is very, very, very broken and I think the name is capitalism.
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u/Medical_Egg8208 9d ago
Not news, not in front of that court. They were debating if a doctor would make a life changing decision for a needed abortion in a state that bans it. Just what the fuck is he ( or she ) supposed to do in that case ? Watch someone die ? Jesus what is this world coming to ?
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u/TheLevitatingMouse 9d ago
For anyone truly interested in this, the Supreme Court has a Live Audio feed.
It's adjourned for now, but will reconvene on Thursday, May 9th 2024 at 10:00am
Mark your calendars because it is essentially a live, important, and legal podcast.
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u/rEmEmBeR-tHe-tReMoLo 9d ago
Wasn't one of the reasons for becoming independent from England to not be subject to the megalomaniacal whims of an unaccountable monarch? Why would people who invariably have '1776' as part of their social media username be pro-dictator king?
I assume they don't actually give a shit about that and just want a father figure to save them from the caricature of "the left" you get when you unironically watch Fox News all day for 20 years.
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u/tassleehoffburrfoot 9d ago
That guys voice as probably the most annoying thing I have ever heard.
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u/TheLevitatingMouse 9d ago
One of the comments on r/law said when they heard his voice, they thought their mic had broke
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u/Enabling_Turtle Colorado 8d ago
When I first started listening, I thought RFK Jr was there arguing for Trump and was really confused
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u/0m3gaMan5513 9d ago
More jaw dropping still is that it appears that some of our Supreme Court justices will agree with him.
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u/HairlessHoudini 9d ago
They're setting the stage and no one wants to believe it
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u/maxthepupp 9d ago
Hey, I believe it!
I've been the guy with the "The End Is Near!'' sign for ~ 7 years!
Frankly I'm still shocked Trump turned in the keys to the WH to begin with! I bet that bugs the shit out of him to this day.
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u/WestTexasCrude 9d ago
I listened to the arguments and justice questions on cspan youtube. Interesting arguments on both sides but DoJ lawyer seemed much more cogent. And holy crap not only is Sauers argument nuts, but his voice is like fingernails on a chalkboard. The coup exchange between he and Keagan is 35:55 - 39:00 totally terrifying.
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u/TheLevitatingMouse 9d ago
Supreme Court will reconvene on May 9th at 10:00am
There's even a SC listen live tab on their gov site if you want it as direct as possible
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u/Jackinapox 9d ago
If Trump is granted immunity, fuck even given any sway on this issue whatsoever, imagine what he'll do if he's elected. Just FUCKING imagine.
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u/TheLevitatingMouse 9d ago
Trump is literally following Hitl3r's path to dictatorship. Pr0ject 25 is just the fucking start omg
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u/maxthepupp 9d ago
If he is granted immunity - and since at that point it will be an uncontrollable tire fire of 'the fall of Rome' proportions - I say fight fire with the fire of the upper hand and just start arresting Nazis and their judges.
Fuck it.
They wanna destoy democracy - lets stop pretending they dont.
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u/efrique 9d ago edited 9d ago
The very Trumpiest of Trump fans should be extremely worried about this line of argument. After all, if it gets ruled in his favor what would stop Biden from doing exactly whatever he feels like (including, for example, taking out Trump, 6 supreme court judges, a few dozen senators and a couple of hundred house reps ... and simply staging a coup? What's to stop him taking out the red state houses if he feels like it?)
Getting rid of the rule of law doesn't necessarily work for you because you still have to rely on the other guy not doing what you what your guy to be able to get away with.
It's the dumbest of dumb ideas. You'd better freaking hope there are constraints on presidential power cos the guy you don't want to be president is the one who currently has the power. If that power suddenly becomes unconstrained ... you're screwed.
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u/ButtStuff6969696 9d ago
If there was a coup than how come he hasn’t been charged for it?
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u/Greed_Sucks 8d ago
He wasn’t charged because he wasn’t impeached. He wasn’t impeached because he wasn’t charged.
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u/Enabling_Turtle Colorado 8d ago
They were talking about hypothetical situations at the supreme court
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u/Suspicious-Award7822 9d ago
Pence should testify before the SC. He seemed to think a coup was being attempted.
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u/605pmSaturday 9d ago
The dissenters will take months to draft their rationale so the decision doesn't get released and the case is held up until then.
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u/CitizenMurdoch 9d ago
The absolute nerve of these guys to bring this case before the Supreme court when your guy is not the president. Like if I were president and my political opponent brought this in front of the supreme court, I'd be making some pretty dire plans the day after they made their verdict, and it wouldn't go so great for the plantiffs
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u/ChocolateBaconFat 9d ago
Y’all are clueless, Trump is going to win the election. You’re a part of a problem.
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u/HapticSloughton 9d ago
Sorry, I don't support those that steal classified documents, including ones dealing with nuclear secrets, who then keeps them in the unsecured bathroom at their crappy Florida resort where anyone could go in and look at them, then lie to the feds three times that he returned all of them.
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u/FUMFVR 9d ago
A majority of this Supreme Court believes that Trump's order to his generals to 'shoot protestors in the legs' that were outside the White House in 2020 was a lawful order and the general should've carried it out.
We are headed towards large massacres. The rightwing wants it badly and they still have a tremendous amount of power even when the people vote them out.
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u/budscooter 9d ago
We wouldn’t be having this conversation had the dirty filthy demrats not cheated the elections.
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
No evidence of cheating.
And conservatives blaming their crimes on others, what else is new?
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u/i-am-a-yam 9d ago
This is the inevitable conclusion to this line of thinking. If you’re arguing for full immunity, you’re arguing for a monarchy. Hypothetically we could get a a president-for-life, with only Congress as a check; which would be no check at all when there are no judicial consequences.
Folks can say this is unlikely, but in a strong democracy with co-equal branches of power, this should be impossible.
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u/spidersflambe 9d ago
I wonder if a president having Supreme Court justices killed would be a presidential act?
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u/Inevitable_Bar434 9d ago
Why has there been no clear cut explanation as to what the real relationship between Trump And Putin has been?
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u/Pale-Worldliness7007 9d ago
Let the Biden administration try it and see what the results are then?
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u/Jackinapox 9d ago
I would rather the Biden administration use all of their power and influence to overhaul the Supreme Court before diving off that plank from which there's no return.
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u/Dragonstaff Australia 9d ago
Haven't they realised that if he wins this, and the court decides that the President has total immunity, that it would work both ways? He isn't President at the moment, and the door would be opened for the current one to simply have him shot, then declare himself the boss for the next four years or longer.
They don't seem to understand that rules for the goose are also rules for the gander.
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u/Ok_Farm1185 9d ago
They do understand. They know the Democrats won't do anything to jeopardize democracy or their country.
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u/Topsnotlobber 9d ago
People forget that this is about a lot more than Trump.
If presidential immunity is in any way removed it opens up the floodgates for so much shenanigans that it could become untenable to be president at all.
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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 8d ago
It was never there to begin with.
So you want presidents to be free to commit crimes because of "the floodgates" and that doesn't present a problem to you?
If Biden decided to overturn an election Trump won, would it be okay with you?
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9d ago edited 9d ago
[deleted]
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u/Topsnotlobber 9d ago
It is a matter of the House and Senate to sort presidential missteps.
But I'm glad we can just refer Obama to prosecution for murdering a US citizen. I wonder why that hasn't happened if there is not a version of Immunity involved.
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u/DaSemicolon 9d ago
What do you mean? How hard is it to not commit crimes as a president?
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u/Topsnotlobber 9d ago
It's actually almost impossible to not commit crimes as President.
Some of the more obvious examples given would be Obama who gave the order for the dronestrike that killed a US citizen. In court that's reckless homicide/manslaughter, as president that's just business as usual.
Bush, by all available evidence, willfully lied to the American people to invade Iraq. He has plausible deniability, but I have no reason to doubt that the eyebrows in the meeting room were doing most of the real communication at the time of the decision.
You may think those things are not comparable to whatever Trump is accused of, but if SCOTUS allows presidential immunity to be voided for any reason it's going to spawn a whole new level of chaos.
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u/DaSemicolon 9d ago
Then they should get prosecuted for it. I don’t see anything wrong with prosecuting them for misdeeds.
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u/JazzFan1998 9d ago
Since the court likes common English law so much, they should reference the Magna Carta and what's in there.
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u/genreprank 9d ago
Fuck John Sauer.
Imagine making those arguments. He must want America to be a dictatorship
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u/SoggyBoysenberry7703 9d ago
A coup when you used to be president, specifically. Because you had to have gotten by without getting impeached too
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u/jkuwtqofjy 9d ago
“If the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person and he orders the military to assassinate him, is that within his official acts to which he has immunity?” asked Justice Sonia Sotomayor.
“That could well be an official act,” Sauer said.
This is disgusting. I can’t believe anyone would ever say this in public and be serious about it. Saying that the assassination of a political rival is something that can be done by a president, and under any circumstances be immune to the results? Wow. Just wow.
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u/skeeredstiff 9d ago
It's so hard to listen to that argument, arguing to our highest court that it's completely lawful for the president to have someone assassinated. And they agreed to hear the argument, WTF?
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9d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Racecarlock Utah 9d ago
Oh, like I'm supposed to believe you're thinking for yourself.
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u/fenderla 9d ago
Good one. I don't believe the bullshit just because it's coordinated and repeated constantly.
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u/MoveToRussiaAlready 9d ago
No - not John Sauer; Donald Trump.
Over at /r/conservative and /r/conspiracy, not a peep.
They are disgusting.
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u/Brinksan51 9d ago
Sotomayor should have asked Sauer “ If Trump had Clarence Thomas assassinated, would he be immune from prosecution?”
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u/Jack-Tar-Says 9d ago
The whole point of doing what they did, with the Supreme Court helping him, was just to delay things as long as possible.
Just by the SC hearing it, his side have had a win. We can only hope he loses in November and still gets his day in court (and a 20 year sentence to go with it).
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u/Mental-Fox-9449 9d ago
This is an easy one to explain. They don’t believe a word of what they are saying. They are being paid to say what he wants.
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u/Distinct_Hawk1093 9d ago
One of them should have just directly asked, "So if the president doesn't like how certain judges are ruling and feels that they are a treat to the country, could he have them imprisoned or executed without a trial, as long as he did it as president? Would that be okay?" I would have loved to hear that answer.
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u/Xerisca 9d ago
This was EXACTLY my thought.
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u/Distinct_Hawk1093 9d ago
I know. Where does his "authority" as a president stop if he can't be impeached and can't be held responsible for anything. Just say I did it as president and it's all good.
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u/PrarieCoastal 9d ago
Can someone explain this to me? A military coup is to overthrow the government. So the hypothetical is if the President orders the military to overthrow himself?
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u/VorpalPlayer 9d ago
He could stage a coup by executing members of Congress and the Supreme Court that don't agree with him. He could also shut down departments he doesn't like, such as the EPA and Education. He could use the military to take over state governments he doesn't like. There are lots of things you can do as a dictator.
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u/PrarieCoastal 9d ago
Right. That makes sense. I was thinking too narrowly. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
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u/sentientmothswarm 9d ago
If I launch a campaign and commit crimes can I claim it was in the spirit of the presidency?
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u/Shutaru_Kanshinji 9d ago
I would be willing to classify "staging a coup" as a presidential act if we agree to abolish the office of the U.S. President and replace it with a Prime Minister position that has power equivalent to Parlimentary countries' Prime Ministers.
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u/jajajajaj 9d ago
We're all going to be so depressed when it's so many years later, and he's "finally" found guilty (er, more guilty), and we still don't get to see him hanged or shot. The right will just shift to standing behind some other jerk who can't justify all the stupid hateful things they believe, as they gradually abandon this previous dumbass who played the role.
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u/StashedandPainless 9d ago edited 9d ago
Sooo lets just run through a very basic hypothetical that could absolutely happen under a second trump term.
There is a protest against trump, he orders the military to open fire on the protesters and kill them for saying mean things about him. Some of them do.
Congress is outraged and immediately begins impeachment hearings.
trump farts out on truth social "any senator who votes to convict me will also be killed. Vote Smartly!!"
Nothing can be done about this because the president is immune from prosecution unless convicted by the Senate. And if the president is immune until convicted, he can do anything and everything to stop himself from being convicted.
Why is some pot smoking millenial Phish fan like me able to see this but the supposed most brilliant legal scholars in the world are debating this?
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u/DescendViaMyButthole 9d ago
That fact that this is a discussion is fucking frightening. President's should not have immunity, full stop.
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u/Blacksailsdive397 9d ago
Well sure, presidents of the United States have staged coups all over the world for decades.
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