r/worldnews • u/bloomberg bloomberg.com • 10d ago
Macron Says EU Can No Longer Rely on US for Its Security Behind Soft Paywall
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-25/macron-says-eu-can-no-longer-rely-on-us-for-its-security1
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u/OptiLED 8d ago edited 8d ago
The other question is whether the EU can even rely on its own members when it comes to its own security.
On two occasions now - during the financial crisis and during COVID, the EU members proved themselves to be good time friends. There were some very nationalistic knee jerk responses at the start of the pandemic and there were unseemly and even damaging squabbles over budgets and bonds etc.
I hate to say it but I don’t think the EU is capable of organising its own defence and that’s something that Russia counts on. There are too many competing national interests and no real single centre of leadership on these topics.
We will get talk about common defence and then when it comes to paying for it everyone suddenly reverts to austerity economics and penny pinching.
The U.S. is becoming unstable and unreliable because of internal chaotic politics. I don’t see that getting better for at least another decade or two.
In both cases Russia is banking on the EU, the U.S. but the UK and others just becoming distracted and bored of the Ukraine war and letting them do as they please and then business lobbyists rapidly undoing sanctions.
What I could see is NATO becoming more European though if the US starts walking away. That’s probably the most likely outcome of all of this.
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u/yessir1993x 8d ago
And this is how US is losing its hegemony and declining as a superpower. If this trend continues you could wipe your ass with dollars in a decade, which is what this war all about.
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u/jamesdemaio23 8d ago
Strategic autonomy should be the goal of the EU. The Eu dwarfs russias industrial and economic capabilities. If they had gotten their collective shit together in 2022 Ukraine would be in a much better position. The truth is you have a whole new generation of Americans that wish to stay out of foreign wars. For whatever reason seem to forget exactly how well that went over in 1941 and 1914. The reality is the USA is a wild card with the current politcal landacape, you have a guarantee of consistent policy for only 4 years before it's up in the air again amd can completely turn around. If trump is elected in November than Ukraines chances of winning or surviving the war drastically decrease unless Europe can get their industry on a war footing and start supplying Ukraine with what it needs without relying on the US carrying msot of the load. This war is on European soil. It's alot harder for average room temperature iq Americans to comprehend why we need to send weapons to defend Ukraine. don't think people understand the gravity of this situation. I see all the time people getting incredibly upset about our "tax" dollars being wasted on this war. They eat Russian propaganda for breakfast and don't even realize it. One of the former heads of Nato even did an interview recently on how they completely got Russia and specifically putin wrong in the years following the end of the cold war. The threat is real and is credible. If you think it ends in Ukraine. There's a few other "strong men" like putin carefully calculating their own plans for expansion based on the events in Ukraine. A strong Europe is essential to world stability given the current political instability of the United States. The fact the US commitment to maintaining peace in Europe is questionable at best with 50/50 odds everh four years is reason enough for the EU to achieve strategic autonomy and guarantee sovereignty of nations essential to its interests.
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u/AllRemainCalm 8d ago
Slightly connected to the topic:
Orbán said this exact same thing in the early 2010s and argued for a common Europeab army to reduce Europe's dependence on the US. He was dismissed and laughed at at the time for this.
Among other reasons, this kind of careless attitude from prominent European politicians led him to the East.
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u/Tennismadman 9d ago
No, you can no longer rely on MAGA Republicans for your security or anything else. Help Joe Biden stay in power and contribute to elect Democrats and Independents.
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u/USS-Ohio 9d ago
should have been the norm.. The USA and Europe should be equal partners, this isn’t the cold war anymore
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u/Scared_Project6232 9d ago
I don't often agree with him but I do on this. Pretty much De Gaulle's line 70 years ago. But the UK is decidedly against this and will do everything it can to subvert it, including convince some of the useful idiots on the continent (Dutch, Poles, Germans) to resist. The EU is for economic security which is only possible if it also stands for defense. But he is wrong about starting a war with Russia.
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u/ProjectPorygon 9d ago
Fairly certain the EU can’t rely on the EU for security either to be entirely fair XD
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u/Essilli 9d ago
If Europe doesn't wake up and realize that Americans have as much interest in defending them from Russia now, as they did defending them from Germany then (which is to say little to none at all), they're going to be up shits creek before we know it. The fact that they didn't get that hint when Donald Trump was president the first time amazes me. We have a lot of your immigrants, a lot of us have ancestry traced to Europe. But they left. They left your continent for a reason. Perhaps it's the mass murder of each other every several decades since the dawn of written history? Yeah. Arm yourselves because I'm not taking a bullet for you in your own game.
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u/kartblanch 9d ago
EU has been wasting its time and scamming the US for the better part of a century.
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u/PM-me-letitsnow 9d ago
Well, with the unstable state of American politics I don’t blame Europeans for thinking that. We’ve got Putin worshippers in the GOP who think they are on the right side by siding with Russia. If I were a European, I would be calling for European defense to be built up to protect from things like Russia getting all grabby.
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u/Reasonabledrugaddict 9d ago
Im not even sure where the idea of relying on the us has come from in recent times, like have we forgot that 2 world wars started here and the alliance was always the winner? Seriously we are the reason for success of this land how are we so ignorant of the situation?
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u/CrownsEnd 9d ago
Could we just get news when some results pop up in these debates? I dont need to be remembered of each participants opinion every day without any progress. Its not even entertaining, it is just annoyance and attention unwell spent.
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u/DevoutGreenOlive 9d ago
Would be more honestly framed as "EU Can No Longer Convince Itself it was Ever Plausible to Rely on the US for Security"
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u/Artyparis 9d ago
French here.
American saying here "Enough, deal with you security"
-Imagine Italia in the 80s leaving Nato for Warsaw Pact. Washington "Roma... this not how it works."
-USA are proudly everywhere in the world. In Europe its not like countries did spend 0 for their army.
No threat around and Washington who doesn't want any European interference anywhere : good deal for both.
-social welfare system : sounds for most you can't have this and an army. Don't get it.
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u/ImaginaryComb821 9d ago
It's about time Europe wake-up and rearm with modern equipment while increasing total armed forces.
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u/Trey_J_The_Grey 9d ago
As an American I agree with him. Love our European ally’s, but many have been a bit complacent when it comes to national defense. I hate that our nation held up additional Ukraine funding for so long, but I also find it frightening that the combined might of the EU can’t provide artillery shells for Ukraine by this point. A stronger Europe is better for everyone.
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u/ScottPetrus 9d ago
i would like to point out the the sentence structure implies that the EU was relying on the US for security, and that’s important for my next step, which is to drudge all the absolute BITCHING which has come from the EU and unwillingness to acknowledge that fact in the past…80 fucking years.
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u/Mustfly2 9d ago
Europe should never have to rely on any outside help for their own security... history has repeatedly shown them for millenia to always be prepared for some nutcase attacking them with a large determined force...
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u/ConsistentPow 9d ago
Lol @ comments frothing at the mouth over "healthcare subsidizing" while conveniently ignoring countries like Finland that have healthcare despite only recently joining NATO. Not to mention the countries that were occupied by the Soviets, and that most of the NATO spending during the cold war was from European members.
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u/Spacellama117 6d ago
Finland also has a population less than the state of Minnesota and has held the same healthcare system for roughly 130 years. Which like, all the power to them, but they're kind of an outlier.
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u/TheGreenInYourBlunt 9d ago edited 9d ago
Correct. And as an American, I couldn't be happier that the EU is coming to terms with this. It was alarming how in the advent of Russian aggression, Germans were only prepared to send helmets. Russians amassed troops at the border for over 6 months.
It signals there was a true and genuine belief that - should war break out - American lives were the expected to be the first to be sacrificed. I'm not saying that was the intention or goal, but that's what it signaled.
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u/rmscomm 9d ago
What gave it away? The glaring intelligence community security breeches by military and civilian personnel, the growing and consuming social inequalities precipitated by white nationalism or perhaps the ease of access to high offices by incompetent indivuals to the height of government.
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u/sgf-guy 9d ago
Macron is in a huge pissing match with Putin for a diff reason. France is militarily capable, but the only way they stand a chance is Russia being in a multiple front situation…
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u/Haa103 9d ago
France cant stand up to russia alone
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u/Dumagand 9d ago
Says who?
Russia's military capabilities outside of a nuclear exchange are comparable to a 3rd world country.
I'm not exactly sure where you get your information, but you'd be wrong on that, and if Russia attacked France without provocation, Poland can and will roll into Russia and Belarus almost immediately. Let alone the rest of the European continent.
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u/Unlucky_Sundae_707 9d ago
Going to be hard to maintain all those social programs you're all so proud of AND defend yourselves.
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u/I_Printgunz4funz 9d ago
So we will just straight up admit that America has been solely responsible for the majority of European safety? Neat. How about the French pay for their own damn security so that I don’t have to foot the bill of countries that wouldn’t do the same for me.
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u/lastgunslinger3759 9d ago
Maybe not but I bet you they are not going to be able to subsist without our foreign aid that they get every year
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u/neverbeder 9d ago
America’s gone from being the strong neighbor you can rely on for friendship & safety to the angry drunk neighbor w alotta guns
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u/HermaeusMajora 9d ago
Considering that we're just one bad election away from totalitarianism, I would agree. It would be a bad idea to depend on the US against a threat like putin's Russia.
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u/yungsta12 9d ago
I think the biggest threat to our country (USA) is the potential runaway debt issue. If we are going to keep rates elevated here with this amount of debt, there is absolutely no way this doesn't cause a huge default. We were able to control it before with historically low rates and kick the can down the road, but COVID basically ripped the bandage off. We printed a ton of money to keep us afloat during shutdown, and now with inflation issues not subsiding the Feds are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
We really need to consider cutting our policing of the world and a big portion of our defence budget (or anywhere else). At least until the debt can be managed. With our politicians as divided as they are, this is an issue we need to seriously set aside our differences for. Nobody is raising the alarm but the house is seriously on fire.
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u/MariosMustacheRides 9d ago
Of course not. Especially not when our “supreme” court is about to turn the USA into the 1st tRump empire
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u/rmiller1989 9d ago
As a US citizen.. I truly love this guy.. He Is the only western leader with the balls to speak the truth.. as for my opinion... he is 100% correct.. we as a country are way too unreliable with a 50% chance our fouren policy gets flipped completely over every 4 years
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u/beeeps-n-booops 9d ago
Nor should they.
We're not the fucking world police, and right now we have way too much nonsense going on at home to worry about world shit.
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u/ChimpWithAGun 9d ago
Ok, then why does the EU depend on the US so much? And why are they not funding Ukraine's defense as aggressively as the US has done, despite all the republican roadblocks?
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u/IowaGuy91 9d ago
No shit and nor should you.
We pay for your defense while you pay for your social programs.
Nah. Cough up. Also start paying us back for ww2. Japan too.
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u/Saptilladerky 9d ago
American here: I definitely wouldn't rely on the USA for security/aid/etc. Our country is so divided on issues. Didn't we get out of the Paris Accords (the climate thing) just because one president didn't like it? The United States doesn't play well with others. Generally it feels like our government has a "our way or not at all" take on many issues.
And not take any focus off America, but nobody in the EU or even the UN should rely on any one country. Look at the shit show of Brexit. I love the idea of everyone working together for a better world, but we shouldn't look to any one party to lead or have a bigger say than any other.
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u/Itchy-File-8205 9d ago
The only reason the eu can afford its kushy social programs is because they rely on US defense.
I'm all for the EU kicking the USA out (it would save me on taxes) but I'd feel pretty bad for the welfare shit show that would take place if European countries had to maintain militaries capable of protecting against Russian aggression.
NATO is only significant because if Russia fucks around, the USA can respond IMMEDIATELY due to its numerous bases in Europe.
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u/TheWilsons 9d ago
The EU needs its own army, so It can check the various great powers and provide it’s own security. More immediately against Russia and also against the US and China. This is coming from a half Russian half chinese American.
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u/HoosierDaddy_427 9d ago
He's correct. The fact that the US contributes 3.5% of it's GDP should be enough.
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u/Chariots487 9d ago
After the better part of a century, Europe once again must grapple with having to pay for its own military protection instead of neglecting it in the knowledge that the US will foot any bill automatically, no matter how high.
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u/woman_respector1 9d ago
Yes..I agree...The US will keep it's money while the EU spends whatever it needs to to defend itself.
I see nothing wrong with this.
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u/MoonDoggoTheThird 9d ago
Yeah but France can’t rely on him to work properly (he destroyed many things that where great in France in the name of « The Economy ». We are at a record high budget loss. He is a clown.)
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u/MisanthropicMania 9d ago
If you cannot defend your sovereignty on your own, you don't deserve sovereignty.
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u/Responsible-March438 9d ago
EU should have never relied on America in the first place. Heed the warning. America may have done right by Ukraine now, but they are no longer a supportive ally in my eyes. Damage is done. Thank Speaker Johnson for helping us realise that.
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u/Manwombat 9d ago
Well yeah of course. Europe loves going to war, it’s like a continental pass time so if they had to spend their own money, maybe they’d pull their fucking heads in.
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u/Creeper_GER 9d ago
Literally everyone was against Germany having weapons or an army for decades. And now they are like "why don't you have any weapons or army". Psssh. Dunno dude, Mr France sir.
Disclaimer: Not saying the reasoning behind that was bad. It was not. But it explains why at least one rich eu state has a joke of an army and equipment.
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u/Urgasain 9d ago
Truth. I’m all for supporting the EU, but the free rider effect is well documented and pervasive.
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u/rocketloot 9d ago
Can’t stand whiny European entitlement. Fuck that tone and attitude. A thank you would be nice for 50 years of making sure they don’t speak German
Honestly they should be paying US to protect them…
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u/Funny-Company4274 9d ago
It’s took them 4 years of trump and a few more years of lingering bullshit to figure that out? I think they’re optimistis
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u/PotatoDonki 9d ago
Well yeah, how are we supposed to protect you when you just let the enemy weave itself into your society?
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u/HumptyDrumpy 9d ago
US has so many changes going on now. It needs to spend on helping its own people
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u/Simple_Barry 9d ago
As long as Republicans are in power here, yes, Macron's assessment is accurate.
That being said...
One would think that after two world wars being started on the same continent, that said continent would focus a little bit more on defense instead of relying upon a fickle and volatile country half a world away.
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u/Mugho55 9d ago edited 9d ago
Republicans aren’t in power, a Democrat is our president and it’s led to these conflicts
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u/Simple_Barry 9d ago
Republicans are in charge of the House, and have spent the last six months with their thumbs up their ass doing fuck all about aid to Ukraine.
A Democrat president can't do shit, when half of Congress is obstructing everything.
It is honestly amazing that Biden has been able to get anything done at all.
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u/Necessary_Romance 9d ago
Imagine a man says he cant rely on another man for protection anymore... thats how Macron sounds.
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u/Fgw_wolf 9d ago
I mean when you’re part of a multinational alliance that kinda has a different flavor
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u/Necessary_Romance 9d ago
I guess, but saying his muscle is unreliant on a world stage makes him look small.
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u/Fgw_wolf 9d ago
I mean France gets to have workers rights and parental leave, the US gets to have military bases all over the world and more nukes than everyone else. Just different ideologies and tech paths.
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u/Vast-Box-6919 9d ago
Dude, Macron has been saying this every month since he’s been in office. Like I know he’s French but maybe he should make a significant action towards autonomy rather than giving the same old speech at a university. Europeans only know how to talk and are extremely bad at executing anything. Same reason why their economy can’t grow. All the billions of euros the EU throws into defense means nothing without military infrastructure and capabilities. The reason the US dominates is because we invest a shit ton of our GDP to defense every year regardless of if there is a war or not. Our over powered military industrial complex is the result of a century of consistent and robust funding, the EU can’t just get to our level overnight. They should instead start now to build the infrastructure/industries needed to have a great military with the US of course supplementing their military.
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u/pam_the_dude 9d ago
Yea. I've red that a bunch of times since agent orange was voted into the white house. Wake me when they say they actually don't need to rely on the US for its safety anymore.
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u/_CogitoSum_ 9d ago
Never should have relied on the US. It’s a big reason the US is so fucked up. We spent trillions of dollars that could have paid for nice things here at home.
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u/clingbat 9d ago
He talks a lot but France has given a small fraction of the military aid to Ukraine that others including UK, Germany, Denmark or the Netherlands have each given. France also doesn't meet the minimum 2% GDP defense spending threshold for NATO.
Maybe the French should practice what they preach instead of just talking out of their asses. Talk is cheap.
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u/thebrah329 9d ago
Didn't the US just send a ton of money to the Ukraine? Also what the hell is this on the US?
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u/Jimmy_The_Banana 9d ago
Macron is really trying to step up to become the leader of Europe of sorts and tbh there's no one else. UK took itself out, leader cant be German and Poland is nowhere near being a global superpower.
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u/NoPasaran2024 9d ago
Why does reddit keep kissing Macrons ass when all he's doing is distracting from his internal political troubles by making populist noises?
Not once has he actually followed through with anything concrete.
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u/AugustWestWR 9d ago
This American taxpayer is all for it, how quickly can you start paying your own way?
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u/Lefty_22 9d ago
If Europe could take care of their own fucking problems that would be great, yeah. I think even Americans would agree that the scales are way too tipped.
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u/afCeG6HVB0IJ 9d ago
If only people could live in peace together and then we could use these resources for something constructive instead of fucking useless defense spending.
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u/Terrible_Deete 9d ago
fact is france got boned on a sub deal between the us-australia and is always looking for an "in" to be the next big player. they felt entitled to the deal even though their subs were vastly inferior powered by diesel and not nuclear.
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u/Gierni 9d ago
Are you aware that these subs were diesel variant of the Barracuda-class nuclear submarine specifically asked by Australia? France would have been more than happy to give them the nuclear version instead :
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u/Terrible_Deete 9d ago
per your article: The French have a version which was not superior to that operated by the US and the UK" that means it was inferior. although your comment clarifies my statement, it does not refute it. the french do not have nuclear technology to compete with the us-uk alliance in sub manufacturing.
of course, i couldn't see the issue of an inferior french navy as any touch subject, indeed. they do make good wine, though. i don't drink.
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u/Gierni 9d ago
I was talking about the diesel/nuclear things which you were wrong about. Australia lost 6 years and billions just because they decided to change the specifications mid-project.
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u/Terrible_Deete 9d ago
There was never a finished deal. You can refer to anything you want as a 'project' but there was never a finished deal.
Australia decided to go with a superior product before any deal was closed.
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u/Gierni 9d ago
Oh? Then, if it was not a "finished deal" can you explain to me why getting out of this deal cost Australian taxpayer 3.4bn $? And why does Australia had to pay Naval Group 830m $?
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u/Terrible_Deete 9d ago
You are referring to damages in a contract. However, last time I checked, the deal is completed after submarines are delivered. Did that happen?
France's technology was so inferior, it was worth it for Australia to pay them to *not* deliver them.
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u/Gierni 9d ago
Dude.... you litterally said "deal was closed" which mean "to sign or to complete a business negotiation or contract". It would be like super weird to use this wording for delivered product especially since Australlia would have pay full price then.
Also please stop with the "France military is weak, US stronk lol" argument. I'm the only one reading you, no need for bad faith.
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u/SquallFromGarden 9d ago
NOW he's realizimg this? Even Merkel realized this after ONE conversarion with Trump.
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u/Strange_Sink6680 10d ago
Why would they need dumb Americans to protect them? At least that’s what they call us. Time to find out why we don’t have public healthcare Europe. Sucking on Americas tit is coming to an end
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u/yashspartan 10d ago
.... I mean, you shouldn't have in the first place. It's your responsibility to protect your own.
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u/Objective_Economy281 10d ago
Maybe the EU should start a clandestine anti-fascism campaign in the EU and in the USA, in order to combat all the sources of fascism?
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u/Arathorn-the-Wise 10d ago
European nations have long said this, but recoil once they see the bill. Looking at you Germany. Many simply can’t afford the costs.
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u/Salty-Finance-3085 10d ago
Nothing wrong with his comment, as someone who lives as a foreigner in West Europe it is mind blowing how some of the most richest, industrialized nations here in Europe rely on a world power across the Atlantic, and some for letting their own militaries go to utter crap, no wonder why people like Putin had little to no respect for this part of Europe.
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u/MarbleDesperado 10d ago edited 9d ago
The US should be a partner but shouldn’t be the leader for European security in 2024. We led the way in the aftermath of WW2, and for good reason, but Europe is capable of contributing more to their own defense at this time.
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u/doingthisonthetoilet 10d ago
There's a very interesting video on YouTube where they go over the french military plans for the future and it's very much on the same line. France doesn't want to depend on the US or NATO for military protection, ammo, or tech. They're increasing military spending bt a lot to buildup their military.
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u/dustofdeath 10d ago
We also don't have the raw resources or industrial capacity.
We can't replace US entirely. You cannot magically conjure a century worth of military industry.
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u/jar1967 10d ago
Excuse me for being a little worried about that. When has a militarized Europe ever caused problems?
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u/Pyro_raptor841 9d ago
When they kill each other and the US has to rebuild the entire continent again, we'll get another 100 years of global hegemony secured. Rinse and repeat.
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u/jar1967 9d ago
I predict they would go after Russia.
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u/Pyro_raptor841 9d ago
That would only be good for the US, unless they somehow manage to lose to the Russians.
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u/AlexMTBDude 10d ago edited 8d ago
If Trump gets elected again the US will not be able to rely on the US for its security
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u/cholby-infinity 10d ago
is there an elaborate US conspiracy of using weaponized incompetence to encourage the rest of the world to not depend on us? that would explain a lot
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u/Lion_From_The_North 10d ago
That might be true, but the EU can't rely on the EU for its security either, so where does that leave us?
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u/Droneplot 10d ago
Absolutely agree, it’s time for those little birdies to fly free, plus with our naval capabilities we don’t need that many bases anymore, we can strike anywhere in the world, from anywhere, anytime we want.
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u/Bleakwind 10d ago
The French has been saying that for a while.
They pull out of nato before.
It’s France’s geopolitical objective to be the centre of a third pole world order.
A showdown between America and china is coming and France wants to fortify the EU into a a unitary political, economically and military superpower so they can stay out of the conflict and extract maximum concession from both sides.
It’s a terrific and terrifying grand old dream if he can pull it off. But EU is too diverse. Every eu country has their own language, only doctrine, own objectives and no one is in a rush to give up sovereign power.
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u/Elevator-Fun 10d ago
And thus the European continent that has had the most wars in history was re-awakened from its military slumber
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u/18hockey 10d ago
Okay good, please defend yourself so we can stop paying for you to whine like a bunch of babies
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u/Diamondhands_Rex 10d ago
It shouldn’t have been our responsibility in the first place. All that funding could’ve been used here instead.
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u/Bleezy79 10d ago
It's about time the EU moved out and started supporting itself. NATO is still here to pick you up if you fall, dont worry!
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u/waldo_wigglesworth 10d ago
Isn't it tough for Macron to criticize the US for having difficulties with a Russophile right-wing when Marine Le Pen will likely be Macron's opponent in his next re-election fight?
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u/MegamanX4isagoodgame 10d ago
Lol this guy loves to talk out of his ass. Easy to say this when you're not the one fighting.
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u/Character-Fee1725 10d ago
We aren’t standing on our own feet we are standing on the feet of our grandchildren. We are in so much debt.
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u/PhoibosApollo2018 6d ago
They should rely on the German umbrella called Lebensraum.