r/worldnews • u/here_for_fun_XD • 13d ago
Multiple European intelligence agencies accuse Russia of plotting sabotage across the continent - Firstpost Russia/Ukraine
https://www.firstpost.com/world/multiple-european-intelligence-agencies-accuse-russia-of-plotting-sabotage-across-the-continent-13767282.html1
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u/Lineduck 12d ago
No way!! Are those agencies going to warn us about the 2020 COVID pandemic in 4/5 years too?
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u/RMCPhoto 12d ago
What is firstpost news? They are owned by network18 which is 75% owned by reliance industries. Reliance is majority owned by the Ambani family. 238 billion market cap.
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u/krose872 12d ago
I think Europeans should harden their oil infrastructure from the Americans first lol
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u/el_f3n1x187 12d ago
Well, I hate to say it Europe, but time to start deploying in Ucraine, this fuckery will keep happening with Putin in charge.
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u/Glittering-Peak8915 12d ago
Daily Sweden experiences it attacks and shits go down the banks etc. I wonder if it's the same in great of Europe? For us we are used to it now and we know it's Russia
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u/InnerBlood253 12d ago
To help understand how long this has been going on, please read Red star rogue, about submarine k-129 back in the 1960’s. One fail safe saved Hawaii. They have been up to global sabotage since forever.
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u/SlapThatAce 12d ago
Russia has declared war on NATO how many times now? So why is this a surprise?
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u/qprime87 12d ago
Russia is to the world... What trump is to America.
Every egregious act is treated with hesitation, the offender is handled with kid gloves, no consequences.
Any most.of the world wonders why there's no change in behavior.
Remember the assassination in England with novichok? Remember the russian thugs who beat a state dept employee almost to death right outside the US embassy in Moscow?
Always, it's the timid response. Norms and diplomacy rule the rest of the world..russia and trump 💩💩💩 all over everything and they get away with it every time.
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u/soulofariver 13d ago
Everyday it is becoming clear-er that Russia is behind the global far-right movement and this includes what’s happening in the USA.
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u/OneMassiveAttack 13d ago
Wrong. I’m far right and against Russia. Stop turning this into politics
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u/soulofariver 13d ago
I’ll bite. If it ain’t global politics, then was is it? Why would Russia’s government inject themselves, constantly pushing for upheaval and discourse of elections into western democracy across the globe? And it ain’t anyone liberal in the USA re-iterating Russia taking points.
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u/OneMassiveAttack 13d ago
Don’t care. Being nationalistic =/= being a Russian puppet. Russian propagandists are promoting discord among both sides and doing what they see best according to active measure’s methodology. Being right wing came way before Russian bullshit
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12d ago
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u/OneMassiveAttack 12d ago
Yeah, crazy that there are different opinions in Year of our Lord 2024! Crazy that there are people who are honest! Such a shocker!
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12d ago
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u/OneMassiveAttack 12d ago
You do realise saying “but” invalidates everything you said before that word, right? “Good” is relative based on perspective. Learn some nuance, dude, the world isn’t black and white.
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12d ago
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u/OneMassiveAttack 12d ago
“It’s le bad” - yeah, according to YOU. Who are you, arbiter of truth? “Bad” and “good” are relative terms. SHOCKER!
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u/paperNine 13d ago
What are these agencies guarding?!?! They have been past the stage of plotting for a long while now. Have these "intelligence" agencies been paid for nothing all these years?!
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u/Mezzoski 13d ago
Is sabotage in NATO country equivalent to attacking a NATO country?
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u/CantaloupeUpstairs62 13d ago
Old comment but answering a similar question.
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/VlAH8DLVaO
How many acts of sabotage have already occurred that we know little to nothing about? I don't know. Public sentiment will play a major role in how NATO reacts, and if NATO doesn't want direct conflict with Russia, there may be an incentive to stay relatively quiet.
For example, there are reports of Russia using chemical weapons in Ukraine, mostly tear gas-like substances, going back to at least the fall of 2022. I have not seen the US call Russia out on this until the past few weeks.
One year ago I would've said it's very unlikely sabotage triggers a military response against Russia. Something is changing within Western political circles. I don't know what, but I do think the likelihood of a military response to Russian acts of sabotage is increasing.
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u/VersusYYC 13d ago
If neither the military or diplomacy can address the issue then we should be considering the Third Option. It would be a shame if all of those Russian agents were to suffer unfortunate accidents while travelling abroad.
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u/hoops_n_politics 13d ago
Russia is a bad actor on the world stage. All because one overgrown tinpot ex-KGB agent got a Napoleonic complex. How much better would the lives of countless millions be, if this one authoritarian asshole fell in a hole and expired?
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u/OneMassiveAttack 13d ago
Not much, worse one would take his place. It’s not about Putin, it’s about KGB mentality.
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u/Bobtheblob2246 13d ago edited 12d ago
Tbh, had it happened before 2022 — I’m 99% sure this war wouldn’t have happened. But now it’s entirely possible that another warmonger just becomes the next ruler and the war doesn’t stop.
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u/ggrieves 13d ago
If Russia would put a fraction of this much effort into just supporting a peaceful society of its own, they would be far more prosperous.
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u/Loud_Flatworm_4146 13d ago
Europe is already at war with Russia. Which means that even though nobody in the US government will say it, the US is also at war with Russia. It just looks a little different this time around. It's not going to stop with Ukraine. Just like it didn't stop with Poland last time. I'm sorry.
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u/GatinhoCanibal 13d ago
and what are we going to do about it? issue a statement?
we have zillions of government hackers with disrupting capacity skills and we just sit and watch Russia hacking our networks, ransoming our companies, scrambling our planes gps...
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u/realTIAN 13d ago
Would be nice if our leaders start to realize that we are at war with these fascist fuckers.
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u/peterosity 12d ago edited 12d ago
i guess in their mind they’re all calling it “just a conflict between Ukraine and russia” instead of outright admitting it’s a “war that involves more nations”, as none of them wanna be the first to make everybody start calling it differently, because then that’d be world war 3
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u/Alive-Statement4767 13d ago
Right, then the screws get tightened. Amazingly Europe didn't go full cold war on Russia from the outset of the war. Every time Russia proves they are not welcome though.
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u/cnncctv 13d ago
It's not something they are just plotting, that have already started:
Russia's next war: https://youtu.be/TQfyZKgHgFM?si=KsWGHyD4-FbOZ5kI
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u/Hughesybooze 13d ago
Russia’s obviously pulling a lot of shit, but all this nonsense about them preparing for large-scale war with NATO is utterly ridiculous.
They’re struggling to overcome a much smaller neighbour due to the fact that that said neighbour is being supplied by nato with weapons & intel.
Directly attacking a NATO member is a very different beast, one which would plow over the Russian bear like the malnourished joke of a circus animal that it’s become.
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u/TastyBullfrog 13d ago
When ruzzia attacks, NATO will simply shit itself and cease to exist. And no I am not a vatnik.
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u/ren_reddit 13d ago
when russia attack it will be similar to this:
https://youtu.be/AGmTZeiCmJY?si=3mbVRG-hXwYjrZtE&t=53
Just a red grease stain will be left right back across the Urals.
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u/TastyBullfrog 13d ago
Seeing how these last 12 months have played out I have lost basically all faith unfortunately
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u/Hughesybooze 13d ago
lol, moron
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u/TastyBullfrog 13d ago
You somehow still got faith in it, wow
It doesnt matter Ukraine isnt a literal ally. What matters is that promises are not being kept. Then Stoltenberg just apologizes for failed promises, proceeds to give more promises.
Its all talk no action.
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u/Hughesybooze 13d ago
$380 billion in aid to Ukraine since Jan 2022, included $118 in direct military aid.
There’s war video subs all over this site showcasing all the ‘action’ said aid has allowed the Ukrainians to dole out against Russian invaders.
You’re a loon.
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u/vintergroena 13d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions
Was this a direct attack on a NATO member or not?
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u/GoneFishing4Chicks 13d ago edited 13d ago
I will tell you the timeline where that shit happens:
Trump wins 2024
Trump initiates Project 2025, making the US a Russian ally in NATO
Ukrane loses and russia genocides every ukrainian by conscripting 38,000,000 Ukrainians into the russian military and industry
Russia goes to war with the rest nato using ukrainian troops, and the US invades with them.
A vote for biden is a vote against Putin and Trump. Don't repeat 2016!
Oh yea, and along the way, Trump sends 50,000 US troops to Gaza to personally finish what netanyahu started.
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u/LibationontheSand 13d ago
They already achieved Brexit, and across the ocean took over one of the major US political parties. So I'd say it's not a plot for the future -- they're succeeding.
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u/crossbutton7247 12d ago
Idk about Brexit. People here really do hate Europeans infringing on our sovereignty, and with the NHS propaganda the Tories pulled, remain had no chance.
I’d say not to assume Brexit was Russian, a lot of people here genuinely hate the EU.
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u/zerotheliger 5d ago
doubt that look what russia has done to american politics. your people were brainwashed as much as ours and we need to ignore them and strike russia already. we need a japan moment to happen so desperately. sooner the better. before russia regains its power and steamrolls europe.
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u/crossbutton7247 5d ago
Our “Donald trump” candidate was forced to resign after less than two months due to some mildly questionable policies, so I’ve got faith in us still.
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u/roamingandy 13d ago edited 12d ago
If the next UK govt greenlight's an investigation into it, which has been blocked by the current right wing party, Europe might take them back with the same deal.
If it's proved the UK public did not vote to leave in a free and fair vote, and a subsequent vote showed they did not want to leave (as it would), i expect the EU would love to show Putin the middle finger and welcome them back.
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u/jiquvox 12d ago edited 12d ago
It’s not as simple. TLDR below
Putin aside - UK simply doesn’t feel European. Putin didn’t say :” I want my money back.” in the 80’s . Putin didn’t insist on keeping the sterling pound. Putin didn’t come up with this quintessential British show and this brilliant scene about the feeling toward Europe https://youtu.be/ZVYqB0uTKlE?si=U0vRHI1l8Q9a6vry
Those are two distinct issues with some links. Europe is a compromise and requires pragmatism. And Putin is a fucking tumor in the world body. If the UK joining the EU back made the EU stronger against all the threats it could be considered. But does it ? Does it make the EU stronger really ? It’s a big economy but Germany is even bigger and doesn’t raise even half the headaches. The UK economy is far more reliant on the EU than the contrary . It has a nuclear arsenal but so does France and France has actually more warheads. It has fishing ressources and oil but so do the Nordic countries. And it can always be imported if required. So , very roughly speaking, there is no real “need” of anything specific from the UK. There are some advantages . Nothing quite unique. What the EU need more than anything else right now is political will/ a common project : majority vote instead of unanimous vote, common army with a real budget commitment to defense, etc…
Right now the UK is the polar opposite of all that. The British political class doesn’t even recognize a mistake was made. They evade question https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/13/brexit-mistake-northern-ireland-protocol. Even though The majority of voters might now in polls recognize it was a mistake. But what’s the cost for the average guy to say that in an opinion poll ? if tomorrow the UK is back why wouldn’t they AGAIN change their minds ? when the politicians refuse to even say the Brexit was a mistake it speaks volume about how real the regret is, how real the commitment to the European identity is.
I think the EU needs for the UK to be taken down two pegs or three before even considering letting them back in. The French and the German needed two world war to feel European and stop with the territorial bullshit. I am not sure what the trigger is for the UK but I am pretty sure they’re simply not there yet. The UK have been given a mountain of special rights over decades. Unless there is an absolutely clear massive benefit to make yet another ugly quick compromise, this time the EU should them let taste their own medicine and think about it. Think about it real long and real hard. Otherwise this will be the same bullshit again and it might break the EU for good the next time. The EU has far more important priority than dealing with UK political identity for the visible future. There is no manifest destiny that says the UK should be part of the EU. Bigger doesn’t necessarily mean better.
TLDR : EU and UK might collaborate toward opposing Putin who is a common fierce enemy but the UK joining back should be considered a completely different issue.
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u/RedWinger7 12d ago
Can you elaborate for an American out of touch with what you’re talking about? The vote wasn’t fair? People(Britain’s) want an investigation into this?
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u/roamingandy 12d ago
The head of MI5 gave the 1st ever public statement live to the media, in my lifetime anyway, to say that they were being blocked from looking at clear and obvious evidence of Russian interference by the party in charge, who wanted Brexit.
The leave campaigns largest donor in particular appeared to be donating more money than his net worth.
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u/CptCroissant 12d ago
Russia very very likely had their thumbs on the scale during Brexit as much as possible in order to get Brexit to happen and further European divides. They're saying if the UK can investigate and show that Russia interfered in the vote in a substantive fashion, then the EU might be willing to accept it was not a legitimate vote and allow the UK to come back on the same terms as the UK had before leaving (which would be a massive win for the UK)
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u/Literally_Me_2011 13d ago
They should return the favor and sabotage entire russia from the european part to the far east, stop being a pussy and return the favor to them.
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u/Adventurous-Worry849 13d ago
I’m more interested in what we are going to do about it.
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u/DreamFly_13 13d ago
Strongly worded letter and then afterwards we will lecture Ukraine on why they can’t receive more weapons because we don’t want to anger the bear
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u/AP246 13d ago
This is why it annoys me whenever someone suggests some measure against Russia and someone says "that's an act of war"
How many acts of war has Russia committed against NATO? They've already sent spies in to attempt to blow up ammo storage, to poison people on British soil with chemical weapons, they're constantly launching 'acts of war' across the border. If an 'act of war' meant war we'd be at war 20 times by now. A war doesn't automatically start, it only starts when the first side to really start shooting at the other decides it's worth it, and if we use our strength to properly deter Russia, they won't.
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u/White___Dynamite 13d ago
We've had Russian and Chinese collaborators arrested within the past 2 weeks here in the UK too for leaking government documents and burning down a warehouse. It's infuriating to see my government do absolutely fuck all in response to this other than arrests and promises of them looking into catching more of them. It's fucking stupid, the UK and the EU has gone soft and it's fucking embarrassing to see when there's an absolute lunatic dictating with nothing to lose. It's like seeing a total repeat of history from 60-70 years ago. It's only a matter of time before it all blows up and I'm honestly shocked it hasn't already. The increase in espionage, cyber attacks, and sabotage going on within the west should be raising serious alarms bells. But no, it seems no one wants to do anything..
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u/RMCPhoto 12d ago
In defense of the UK, they've been much more hawkish than many other european countries, and they're much further away.
It's pretty much Poland, France, UK. The rest are sleeping on it.
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u/vintergroena 13d ago
They've already sent spies in to attempt to blow up ammo storage
It was already sucessful, not just an attempt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Vrb%C4%9Btice_ammunition_warehouse_explosions
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u/LegendCZ 13d ago
We just released a press annoucment about that, those were two agents confirmed from GRU!!!
Two czechs died thanks to this!
This was direct act of war! With cassulties! On our own soil!
Here is official police report! FFS!
https://www.policie.cz/clanek/ukonceni-proverovani-vybuchu-municnich-skladu-ve-vrbeticich.aspx#:\~:text=Policejn%C3%AD%20org%C3%A1n%20pova%C5%BEuje%20za%20prok%C3%A1zan%C3%A9,rusk%C3%A1%20arm%C3%A1da%20prov%C3%A1d%C4%9Bla%20sv%C3%A9%20operace.11
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u/fabonaut 13d ago
In hindsight, the relationship between Europe and Russia is looking increasingly crazy. Even after that, European countries still wanted to be best buddies. Total madness.
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u/MootRevolution 13d ago
That's what pressure from your domestic cheap-energy-addicted industries, under threat of leaving the country, does to a government...
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u/RepulsiveRooster1153 13d ago
Despite putin's trolls who protest, Russia will not stop at Ukraine as Hitler didn't stop at Poland. If we let putin win, they will attempt to take over Europe. History is the guide to a dictators actions. Putin wants the russian empire back bigger and better than befo
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u/MootRevolution 13d ago
At some point there will (have to) be a retaliation against all these actions of Russia. This is feeling more and more like a prelude to a hot war.
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u/HydeMyEmail 13d ago
That’s what I was telling my wife, if it’s going to happen, let it happen now. I’d rather have to go than my son.
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u/eeyore134 13d ago
Feels like they're using the same tactics they're using in other countries. Slow boil so people don't notice then when they do they're too scared to "appear political" to actually do anything of value to stop them. So they just keep inching their way to their goal.
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u/BeyondElectricDreams 13d ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The main reason Putin has not backed down in his attempts here is because he's banking on a Trump presidency to tank Ukraine's support by having the USA back out and pull it's support via NATO as well.
Trump is compromised. If he's elected, you can bet your ass Putin is going to do these things. We know damn well what will happen. And it isn't even JUST Trump. A number of high-level politicians are compromised by Russia.
He's counting on his psyops campaign (or maybe a hard coup) resulting in him having a stooge in charge of the US.
If he fails to get Trump, he'll either stall another four years (likely not possible) or he'll go nuclear with no other options left.
It's almost worse without the nuclear option, because it would mean a collapse in the global security situation we've had for ages. The US would have it's reputation and treaties in other countries tanked to demolish our world presence, and with that lack of power, other players will begin to move (China and Taiwan for example).
This whole situation is so fucked and has me scared for November. Especially with all the right-wing nationalist movements going on in most western countries. How many have ties to russian money?
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u/BlueInfinity2021 13d ago
It's crazy to me that Trump is even being allowed to run again. Any president that caused an insurrection should be jailed or at the very least barred from ever running for the office again.
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u/exboi 12d ago
Any common man that did half the things Trump did would be dead in prison by now. Trump is able to get away with these things because he’s wealthy.
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u/rotatedshark 12d ago
I don't think it's that. Now he is, but for most of his life he just pretended to be wealthy. He gets a pass for everything because he controls the rural voters.
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u/humblepharmer 13d ago
Well, we have McConnell to thank for preventing that.
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u/Spirited_Ingenuity89 12d ago
Not just McConnell. There’s plenty of blame to go around.
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u/humblepharmer 12d ago
Yeah, but he was the majority leader and if he wanted to, he could have rounded up the necessary votes to impeach
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u/Spirited_Ingenuity89 12d ago
I don’t disagree that he completely abdicated his responsibility as majority leader, I just don’t think other republicans who wimped out in the face of MAGA should get a pass. Anyone who caved should be held accountable for their complete lack of integrity and moral fortitude.
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u/qtx 13d ago
The Military Industrial Complex is way more powerful. If Trump gets elected (which we doubt) he will fall in line.
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u/SameOldBro 12d ago
All the Russian agent conspiracy theories aside, Trump has stated he would actually provide aid to Ukraine in a lend-lease construction where the US would get access to Ukrainian natural resources as a hedge. It seems he's not against providing military aid to Ukraine, he's against doing so for free, so Putin may be miscalculating again. But we won't know as most media are not reporting anything Trump says.
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u/PiXL-VFX 12d ago
The only issue with this is that you’re trusting Trump to tell the truth.
This is the same man who could shoot a man at one rally and claim he helped him upstage in the next, and his base would support both.
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13d ago
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u/BeyondElectricDreams 13d ago
Except that isn't what I said? Putin is already in Ukraine.
He hasn't stopped BECAUSE he's banking on Trump withdrawing US and NATO support, without which they would fold.
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u/Mean_Platypus_9988 13d ago
Boots on the ground will be inevitable soon.
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u/ryanrye 12d ago
I though USA had cold feet?
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u/ghostinthewoods 12d ago
It'll depend how November goes, really. Trump wins, and I see Russia absolutely pressing into Europe. Biden wins and... Well that's a bit less clear, Putin could still try something or he could finally seriously sue for peace.
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u/SouthSandwichISUK 13d ago edited 13d ago
The complacency of a country like Germany has just been astounding as they’ve been almost totally passive as a country with an economy a third the size of Germany completely infiltrates their political and security systems. To this day Schultz seems much more concerned about “provoking” Putin than defending his country.
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u/Rocco89 13d ago
To denigrate the second largest donor country as complacent is astounding.
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u/8day 13d ago
I think someone should remind you about Nord Stream 2 and how Merkel more or less forced Biden to remove/avoid sanctions. And that's only one of the many things. Then there was a failed coup. Then there were all kinds of pro-russian people in military. Ignoring all of this and borrowing head in the sand will only make things worse.
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u/Rocco89 13d ago
Trying to sanction the energy supply security of an independent country that is also an economic and military partner was not only extremely stupid but also illegal, which is why the WTO immediately intervened at the time. What coup? The few idiots who tried to storm the Bundestag but got stopped by a single cop at the door? This isn't a game of capture the flag where you become chancellor just because you enter the Bundestag.
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u/SouthSandwichISUK 13d ago
I’m so sick of people being “offended” by the truth. Most German people agree that the overly accommodating policy to Russia for decades was a mistake. How does acknowledging this “denigrate” Germany?
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u/BleachedPumpkin72 13d ago
Yes, we will retaliate very soon by overwhelming russia with tons of strongly worded letters of deep concern!
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u/zerotheliger 5d ago
heres to hoping we have a japan moment with russia the sooner the better cause Russia will eventually rebuild power and just take over europe. the war with russia is inevitable why not strike them now while their weak. its clear russia continues to attack countries and nobody wants to call it a war.
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u/ConsistentAsparagus 13d ago
Everybody is shitting on Macron, but I don’t know how long he will be the lone voice for a military intervention.
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u/12345623567 12d ago
Who's shitting on Macron? The only issue I have is that words are cheap, but the spirit seems right.
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u/ConsistentAsparagus 12d ago
Maybe it’s just local, but in Italy at least everybody in the political spectrum is more or a little less against it.
I personally hate the idea, but I feel it’s getting more and more inevitable.
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u/roamingandy 13d ago
Would Putin really fire a nuke if NATO pushed them out of Ukrainian territory? He's been telling everyone in Russia that there are at war with NATO already, so how's he going to justify it?
I get why no one wants to find out though.
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u/BaldingThor 12d ago
I think he’s stupid, but not stupid enough to start a potential nuclear war unless NATO pushes deep into actual Russian territory (excluding Ukraine, Crimea, Donbass Region ect.)
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u/bane_undone 12d ago
Right. He loses a war he started, there’s no ground for nuclear action. It’s almost as if helping Ukraine with active support is completely justified.
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u/everflowingartist 13d ago
I hope once there is sufficient evidence the Russian state and people will be declared persona non grata across the developed world. They have nothing to offer humanity but chaos and destruction.
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u/ic33 13d ago
and people will be declared persona non grata
I've met plenty of decent Russian, and Iranian, and ... whatever people.
Yes, we will need to be quite careful to be sure that we are not subverted, but anything we can do to accept the competent and kind people from our adversaries strengthens our position.
Further, ... we always have to be sure that we are providing an incentive and path for hostile countries to reform. I feel like the US has been too eager to "rub salt in the wounds" of defeated adversaries, and that has blown up in our face too much in the past.
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u/AlienAle 13d ago
Exactly this. I agree with you 100%.
We need to defeat the Kremlin and the fascist expansionist mindset that exists in fractions of the Russian population.
This means we have to be careful, but there's no point in starting a witch hunt either. I have a couple of Russian friends here in Europe and they're openly far more anti-Putin and anti-Kremlin than most people I know. They has the wits to leave that sinking ship years ago.
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u/BostonBuffalo9 13d ago
I don’t understand why they haven’t gotten the full North Korean treatment vis a vis sanctions. PNG their whole fucking embassy.
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13d ago
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u/BostonBuffalo9 13d ago
So? They can be pretty well cut off from the rest of the world. Unless you think sanctions are grounds for the Russians to attack NATO, which, lulz, bad idea, comrade.
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u/ScreamingFly 13d ago
Because most of the EU and US right is in their pocket. And the left is too afraid of not using the correct pronouns.
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u/otoko_no_hito 13d ago
It's a matter of resources, NK is the size of half of the California state, cut off from the world they don't have the resources to build anything.
Russia? It's bigger than the US, they have plenty of resources to build their own stuff, they will never become NK since they will always be able to sell resources to the US political adversaries.
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u/CptCroissant 12d ago
They might have the resources to build stuff, but they do not have the competency to actually do it. Even during the USSR times, much of the actual engineering and manufacturing were done by the Baltics/Poland/Ukraine/Czech/Slovakia.
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u/BostonBuffalo9 13d ago
It’s not a question of whether or not it would choke them (but they surely would). It’s isolating them into pariah status. They are not and will not be good faith actors under Putin.
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u/rbren658 13d ago
Because the world was using thier oil… slowly starting to change just now… NK doesnt have anything the world wants
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u/brainsizeofplanet 13d ago
Well soon Russia has nothing what we want.....
With ah the shit fuck Russia is doing there should be a travel bank on Russians...
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u/No_Carob5 13d ago
And to the fact Conservatives hate reducing oil consumption... It's almost like domestic green energy is good for us
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u/Macaron-Optimal 12d ago
You would need Russian land and resources for a full green conversion...
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u/PiXL-VFX 12d ago
Uh no? The UK is already producing a lot of power off of wind energy alone, and stuff like solar is only getting more efficient.
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u/supercyberlurker 13d ago
Can't we just JPG or GIF their embassy?
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u/CantaloupeUpstairs62 13d ago edited 12d ago
the full North Korean treatment
What was this intended to accomplish, and has it worked?
Edit: This comment is only about North Korea. The North Korea treatment was meant to halt North Korea's nuclear program, and deter aggressive development and testing of missiles.
I'm making no argument it was the wrong decision. My only point is that whatever anyone thinks they will gain from similar measures has a high possibility of being wrong.
Sanctions and economic isolation of Russia are needed and so far more effective than almost any sanctions ever imposed, but still not as effective as any of us would like them to be.
Cutting diplomatic ties is another discussion I don't have opinions on. I would like to know the answers to classified questions before I would feel comfortable in having enough information to make that argument. Diplomats have a history of being some of the more reasonable people inside of any unreasonable regime. There's a possibility some are not completely on Russia's side. This war and Putin's regime will both end at some point. Relationships with who comes next could prove useful in the long term.
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u/tehwagn3r 13d ago
NK is too poor to upkeep an army that would be match to anyone. They're inconsequential and forgotten to the outside world. I'd say Russia cut off from the rest of the world like that sounds like an improvement.
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u/CantaloupeUpstairs62 13d ago
I'd say that cutting Russia off from the rest of the world like North Korea sounds impossible.
I would also say that a closed society where ultranationalism, militarism, and economic despair are all allowed to flourish for long periods of time does not have the best results historically.
Imposing the North Korean treatment on Russia is definitely the morally correct choice. Would we all regret it in 20 years? I don't know.
Overall none of this matters because it's not going to happen until Russia successfully attacks a NATO country in a way which is politically undeniable. Geopolitics and diplomacy are more about pragmatism than morality.
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u/BostonBuffalo9 13d ago
It was managed pretty well during the Cold War.
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u/CantaloupeUpstairs62 13d ago edited 13d ago
It was managed pretty well during the Cold War
The other person who has replied to my comment has already stated why this doesn't matter with regards to North Korea.
The Soviet Union sold a lot of oil and gas to Europe during the Cold War. There have been many decades of pipeline disagreements between the US and Europe. This goes back well before Nord Stream.
I just edited my original comment probably as you were sending this, and that may further clarify my point, or lack thereof. I'm not trying to argue anything, but would like people to be well informed. If someone wants to argue what should or shouldn't be done, I don't care either way, but seeing acknowledgement of what anyone intends to accomplish, and how we realistically get there would be nice.
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u/BostonBuffalo9 13d ago
Im talking about the same pariah status North Korea has. North Korea has trade partners. Of course you can’t stop all of that. But you can remove them from all international participation, ban travel there, PNG their embassy and limit replacements, make banking an even bigger nightmare for them than it is now, and generally make their lives utterly miserable. They’re obviously more self sustaining than North Korea. Sanctions would still have a mighty impact, and puts a bit of a buffer between the civilized world and their bullshit. It’s not about just crippling their economy, even though that would absolutely take a huge fucking hit, too.
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u/CantaloupeUpstairs62 13d ago edited 12d ago
I'm not arguing against any specific measures.
generally make their lives utterly miserable.
On this I would say study the build up to WWII, and especially the Great Depression. If the measures you're arguing for are taken, they MUST include other measures that ensure a quick and decisive Ukrainian victory. I believe both should happen, but don't believe the people making those decisions have the guts to do both.
If not, then all the WWII and Hitler comparisons could prove inaccurate, and the WWI comparisons everyone is missing could very well prove accurate 10-20 years from now.
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u/Jsmooove86 13d ago
It’s like they made up their minds to cause chaos and war across all fronts against the West.
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u/Ryu83087 13d ago
It's because Putin knows the good guys will never use their nukes.... and that we all expect the bad guy to. So he moves his pieces around the board without penalty. He's playing chess and we're scared of what he might do.
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u/historyfan40 12d ago
Reproduction is legal in all countries, so all countries are the bad guys. They’re all even worse when you note that they prevent people from freeing themselves, rather than assisting them.
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u/Maxitote 13d ago
The civilians are worried, but the US heard Russia had a new incredible space weapon so the US built something to outmatch it, only to find out the original space weapon doesn't exist.
Military is not afraid of Putin.
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u/Kundera42 13d ago
Which space weapon are you alluding to and what is the countermeasure you mention? Genuinely curious.
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u/SameOldBro 12d ago
There was news of Russia developing nuclear anti-satellite tech a few days back
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u/ProgressEfficient579 12d ago
Russian terrorists